If you take a Vietnamese girl out on a
date, she will probably expect to be paid for. If you actually start going out
with her, she might expect you to express your affection in the form of
anything from roses to Iphones. Vietnamese women expect a degree of gallantry
from (Vietnamese and) Western men which, from a Western point of view, can feel
like you're being taken for a bit of a ride. Meeting a gorgeous Vietnamese girl
means learning to differentiate between situations where cultural differences
are in play and when you're being taken for a ride (and when you're taking
yourself for a ride).
The thing you need to understand which will stop you falling into various clichéd, vaguely racist patterns of thought about Vietnamese girls taking Western men for a ride is how the life-story of a good, traditional Vietnamese girl reads.
Most traditional Vietnamese girls are raised by their parents in a close-knit family environment. They live with their parents until marriage. Many of them, insofar as they do any sort of dating before marriage, date one guy for a relatively short period of time - often a guy who is already known to their parents. During this dating phase, the guy pays for everything and buys presents for the girl's family - large or small ones, depending on his means. After the wedding, he will be expected to earn 100% of the money, which he will proceed to hand over all of to her. She will be expected to keep house, look after the kids and keep tight control of the purse strings. While husband and wife will enter into discussion when it comes to big-ticket items like houses and motorbikes, she'll be the main administrator of the family finances. If he's lucky, she'll give him back 10% of his earnings as pocket money.
Now here's the thing. However limiting this picture of female roles may seem from a Western point of view, this is the way many, many Vietnamese girls like it. On top of major expressions of serious romantic intent, presents and payments are essential to what they expect from any interested male party to a long-term relationship.
And here's another thing, still more interesting. Many Vietnamese men are equally as comfortable with the traditional system of presents and payments, firstly because it gives them the reassurance of set romantic roles, secondly because it gives them the opportunity to show generosity and care (and power), as well as hopefully leaving a little lee-way to hide the debts they rack up during their initial romantic campaigns.
Which is not to say that all Vietnamese girls fit the traditional picture. In big Vietnamese cities, you'll come across plenty of girls who are not living at home, who are financially independent of their families and who are willing to pay for themselves on dates. Younger generations of Vietnamese women tend to be comfortable with the idea of going out with several different men before actually choosing one to marry, and less keen on leaving the workforce or being financially dependent on their husbands. The most forward-looking among them clearly have serious doubts about the standard Vietnamese ideal of love and marriage (gifts and payments) which often for a woman means marrying the first decent, caring, financially solvent guy who comes along and sticks competently to conventional romantic roles.
However, life is not exactly easy for a modern, independent Vietnamese girl who wants to make her own way in the world. A girl who takes her economic or romantic fate into her own hands is seen, at best, as going against tradition, and at worst as deeply bad by the traditionalists in her own family, or indeed by the traditional part of herself.
And this is also where things get confusing for Western men in Vietnam. Because, truth be told, there are a lot of Vietnamese girls out there who are operating somewhere between the poles of Vietnamese tradition and Western-style modernity.
Most confusing of all, there are a lot of girls out there who are operating on rather traditional assumptions, even though they live in the loud, brash environment of Ho Chi Minh City or Hanoi and have all the accoutrements of independence and modernity (smartphones, Vespas, short shorts short enough to kill men on the spot).
Put simply, there's a rather large culture gap that you need to mind if you want to meet, date or even marry a Vietnamese girl. At the dating stage, if a Vietnamese girl expects you to pay, asks you for gifts and waits for you to call, it doesn't necessarily mean she's a sharp operator who's after your money or playing strategically on your heartstrings. All it might mean is that she's sticking to traditional Vietnamese rules about dating, romance and male/female relations generally.
There's no doubt, however, that a traditionalistic Vietnamese girl is a tough romantic proposition for a Western male with modern Western expectations about romance and money and modern Western views about sexual equality. Unless you yourself are an out-and-out traditionalist, a woman who shows little interest in being anything other than a gently (or fiercely) passive object of male desire and care is probably not the best person for you to start chasing round after.
The main problem here being that some rather traditional Vietnamese girls are so drop-dead gorgeous that Western men end up chasing round after them. And marrying them. And driving themselves insane in the process.
The thing you need to understand which will stop you falling into various clichéd, vaguely racist patterns of thought about Vietnamese girls taking Western men for a ride is how the life-story of a good, traditional Vietnamese girl reads.
Most traditional Vietnamese girls are raised by their parents in a close-knit family environment. They live with their parents until marriage. Many of them, insofar as they do any sort of dating before marriage, date one guy for a relatively short period of time - often a guy who is already known to their parents. During this dating phase, the guy pays for everything and buys presents for the girl's family - large or small ones, depending on his means. After the wedding, he will be expected to earn 100% of the money, which he will proceed to hand over all of to her. She will be expected to keep house, look after the kids and keep tight control of the purse strings. While husband and wife will enter into discussion when it comes to big-ticket items like houses and motorbikes, she'll be the main administrator of the family finances. If he's lucky, she'll give him back 10% of his earnings as pocket money.
Now here's the thing. However limiting this picture of female roles may seem from a Western point of view, this is the way many, many Vietnamese girls like it. On top of major expressions of serious romantic intent, presents and payments are essential to what they expect from any interested male party to a long-term relationship.
And here's another thing, still more interesting. Many Vietnamese men are equally as comfortable with the traditional system of presents and payments, firstly because it gives them the reassurance of set romantic roles, secondly because it gives them the opportunity to show generosity and care (and power), as well as hopefully leaving a little lee-way to hide the debts they rack up during their initial romantic campaigns.
Which is not to say that all Vietnamese girls fit the traditional picture. In big Vietnamese cities, you'll come across plenty of girls who are not living at home, who are financially independent of their families and who are willing to pay for themselves on dates. Younger generations of Vietnamese women tend to be comfortable with the idea of going out with several different men before actually choosing one to marry, and less keen on leaving the workforce or being financially dependent on their husbands. The most forward-looking among them clearly have serious doubts about the standard Vietnamese ideal of love and marriage (gifts and payments) which often for a woman means marrying the first decent, caring, financially solvent guy who comes along and sticks competently to conventional romantic roles.
However, life is not exactly easy for a modern, independent Vietnamese girl who wants to make her own way in the world. A girl who takes her economic or romantic fate into her own hands is seen, at best, as going against tradition, and at worst as deeply bad by the traditionalists in her own family, or indeed by the traditional part of herself.
And this is also where things get confusing for Western men in Vietnam. Because, truth be told, there are a lot of Vietnamese girls out there who are operating somewhere between the poles of Vietnamese tradition and Western-style modernity.
Most confusing of all, there are a lot of girls out there who are operating on rather traditional assumptions, even though they live in the loud, brash environment of Ho Chi Minh City or Hanoi and have all the accoutrements of independence and modernity (smartphones, Vespas, short shorts short enough to kill men on the spot).
Put simply, there's a rather large culture gap that you need to mind if you want to meet, date or even marry a Vietnamese girl. At the dating stage, if a Vietnamese girl expects you to pay, asks you for gifts and waits for you to call, it doesn't necessarily mean she's a sharp operator who's after your money or playing strategically on your heartstrings. All it might mean is that she's sticking to traditional Vietnamese rules about dating, romance and male/female relations generally.
There's no doubt, however, that a traditionalistic Vietnamese girl is a tough romantic proposition for a Western male with modern Western expectations about romance and money and modern Western views about sexual equality. Unless you yourself are an out-and-out traditionalist, a woman who shows little interest in being anything other than a gently (or fiercely) passive object of male desire and care is probably not the best person for you to start chasing round after.
The main problem here being that some rather traditional Vietnamese girls are so drop-dead gorgeous that Western men end up chasing round after them. And marrying them. And driving themselves insane in the process.
*
Of course, there are some sharp operators on the
Vietnamese
romantic scene - some women whose exclusive interest in the contents of
Western
men's wallets makes an interesting complement to Western men's interest in the
contents of their pants. Specifically, there are
Vietnamese girls who will pursue Western men, either for short-term or
long-term relationships, for reasons that have nothing much to do with
love,
romance or the general joy of human interaction (such as it is).
Some Vietnamese girls are interested in finding Western boyfriends because they imagine that all Western guys are fantastically rich.
Some Vietnamese girls are interested in finding Western boyfriends just because having a Western boyfriend is considered glamorous - or because having Eurasian babies is considered even more glamorous.
Others might see having a Western boyfriend as a ticket out of Vietnam.
Here's the tricky thing, though. Often, the instrumental attitude to relationships of these kinds of sharp operators is far from purely selfish. Thinking of themselves as dutiful members of a wider family unit, a lot of sharp operators see having a Western boyfriend, ready to shoot them money and buy them presents, as a way of helping out their families. Most of the presents and payments made by the Western boyfriend get shot out to relatives in the provinces. Which can make said Western boyfriend feel as if his generosity is being seriously abused. But which for his girlfriend is a pure expression of economic necessity and filial piety.
Some Vietnamese girls are interested in finding Western boyfriends because they imagine that all Western guys are fantastically rich.
Some Vietnamese girls are interested in finding Western boyfriends just because having a Western boyfriend is considered glamorous - or because having Eurasian babies is considered even more glamorous.
Others might see having a Western boyfriend as a ticket out of Vietnam.
Here's the tricky thing, though. Often, the instrumental attitude to relationships of these kinds of sharp operators is far from purely selfish. Thinking of themselves as dutiful members of a wider family unit, a lot of sharp operators see having a Western boyfriend, ready to shoot them money and buy them presents, as a way of helping out their families. Most of the presents and payments made by the Western boyfriend get shot out to relatives in the provinces. Which can make said Western boyfriend feel as if his generosity is being seriously abused. But which for his girlfriend is a pure expression of economic necessity and filial piety.
*
Because of the mixed motives that some Vietnamese girls have for entering into relationships with Western men, sharp operators are not always easy to pick. And taking evasive action is not always easy; being in a relationship with a woman (or man) whose motives are largely instrumental doesn't of course mean that there can't be affection, or even a kind of love.
The easiest sharp operators to pick are the ones who make wild requests for money straight up and stop returning your calls if you show any signs of refusing them.
The fact that a girl asks you to buy her an Iphone after two dates is probably also a bad sign.
Further down the track, a pretty reliable sign that a Vietnamese girl may be an unsuitable object of desire is that she won't discuss her expectations (and how they might differ from yours) in a sensible, adult way - assuming, again, that you're willing to discuss your expectations (and how they might differ from hers) in a sensible adult way.
My Vietnamese muses, Tâm and Nguyệt, tell me that the best way to cope with the differences between standard Western and Vietnamese expectations on dates is for the guy to just pay for everything. That is, you pay for all the drinks and food consumed by everyone, including yourself, your date and any other girlfriends she decides to bring along to the date for moral support.
Further down the track, it seems advisable to have an open chat about money-issues and how you're going to handle them as a couple. If your girlfriend is educated, urban and financially independent, then she will probably be fine about splitting bills. In fact, she might insist that bills be split - not for strictly feminist reasons, but on the practical ground that you both turned up, both sipped the smoothies, and so both ought to cover the cost. If she is not so modern in her ways and expects you to keep paying for everything the two of you do together, then that's when you have to decide how much of the cultural gap you are willing to manfully bestride.
I would say it is a little neurotic to think your relationship with her is in serious trouble just because she expects you to pay for most things most of the time. Let's face it, oh Western man, your dollars (Euros, kronas, etc.) go a long long way in Vietnam. So don't tie yourself in knots over the money situation, if we're just talking about $20 or $30 here and there.
If you go traveling out of town without your Vietnamese girlfriend, you should remember to do the culturally appropriate thing and buy her presents (small ones). When you first meet her family, have presents ready for them too.
Even if, on the basis of mature, adult discussion, you establish that she is willing to cover half of any bills you incur together, then be certain she's still willing to do this when you go out with a larger group of Vietnamese friends. You can guarantee that most of the Vietnamese men in the group will be covering for their girlfriends and you don't want your girlfriend copping any nonsense from her more conventional friends as she takes out her purse at the end of the night. In these sorts of situations, she could always pay you back later.
Last of all (say the Muses), if at some stage in your burgeoning relationship, she starts demanding gold ingots or whitegoods, don't just swallow your pride. Speak up before break up, men. The cultural gap that you thought didn't exist when you first started going out with her has opened up again.
Don't stare into the abyss. Look across the abyss and talk, explain, negotiate. Say no to Her, if you have to, but make sure you say why too.
For a Western guy, the trickiest issue about getting into a relationship with a Vietnamese girl is the issue of overcoming your culturally over-determined anxieties about being taken for a ride. But that's not the only big issue in play. The other main issue is that, in getting into a relationship with a Western guy, your girlfriend will have to overcome her anxieties about being seen as a moral monster.
If you can mutually handle both those sets of issues, then being in a relationship with a Vietnamese girl can be a beautiful, fun and happy-making thing. Across the board, Vietnamese women, especially the ones who have had some contact with the world outside of Vietnam, are curious, low-key and tenaciously loyal human beings with a politeness of heart and emotional consistency that you might have found lacking in other romantic climates. So if the pair of you can just get over your various issues, then you might be looking at a serious stint in . . . what's the name of the place you go when human relationships are pretty damn good most of the time? Not paradise . . . Ah, that's right, normality.
"During this dating phase, the guy pays for everything and buys presents for the girl's family - large or small ones, depending on his means. After the wedding, he will be expected to earn 100% of the money, which he will proceed to hand over all of to her. She will be expected to keep house, look after the kids and keep tight control of the purse strings. While husband and wife will enter into discussion when it comes to big-ticket items like houses and motorbikes, she'll be the main administrator of the family finances. If he's lucky, she'll give him back 10% of his earnings as pocket money."--> i havent read all of the article, but i dont think this part is 100% true in Vietnam any more, especially with educated and modern girls. i feel a bit disrespectful for Vietnamese girls, and i dont think u have enough experiences with Vietnamese people :)
ReplyDeletePlease read the rest of the article. The bit you've quoted is about more traditional Vietnamese girls. I say later on that Vietnamese city girls, especially well-educated ones, have much more modern attitudes - they don't want to be looked after by men and they're fine with paying for themselves on dates.
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